Curse

KaPe · Oct 22, 2005, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Seems like there's some trend recently to whine about monks in all forms possible. What is that, jealousy? You can do fine without monk, you can do fine without any specific class, duh. What's wrong with getting 2 monks? What's this? Nothing? Good answer. What, you think it automatically makes you "noob"? By getting 2 character dedicated to healing, all other can focus on offense instead of self-healing/protecting, meaning in the end, your firepower would be just as good as in "balanced" parties, yet you would have extra monk in case something goes wrong.

Also, I noticed recently on forums, that quite a few Mesmer are so full of themselves, claiming that they do such great damage with Shatter Hex and people are "noobs" for not inviting them. Let me put it that way - assuming I even make party(henchie ftw), I have nothing against other classes - but with such attitude, I'd "forget" to heal and ressurect you. If you want to be damage-dealing Mesmer - be my guest, but do not consider typical damage dealing Elementalist "noob" and inferior.

octaviancmb · Oct 22, 2005, 05:01 AM // 05:01

It is not the *taking* of two Monks that makes people a "noob" but rather the *assumption* that in order to succeed at all you must take two (or more) healing Monks. By all means, organize your groups however you'd like. Heck, take six healers and two trappers; you'll probably be successful in PvE (and Rangers do need some more love). More power to you, and enjoy yourself! Such a group would probably be kinda fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaPe

By getting 2 character dedicated to healing, all other can focus on offense instead of self-healing/protecting, meaning in the end, your firepower would be just as good as in "balanced" parties, yet you would have extra monk in case something goes wrong.

The counter-argument most of us are trying to promote is that by learning to keep yourself alive, you do not need to rely on those two Monks, and thus you can have eight characters who are dedicated to dealing damage and eight characters who can protect the party. By learning to protect yourself you become a better player, and if you never learn how to protect yourself, you'll always be a drain on your party's resources.

There are many players who only ever group with two to three Monks. These players probably have a very skewed and narrow view of their professions. The "myth of the two monks" exacerbates this style of arguably poor play. Many people on these boards wish to enlighten others as to the great diversity and wealth of strategies available in Guild Wars. Others wish to remain lazy and let "other people" (Monks) take care of them. I think we'd all find less Monk-hate and many more successful groups if everyone would take more responsibility for themselves. You are welcome to disagree with this line of thinking, but know that, in doing so, some will call you "noob."

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaPe

Also, I noticed recently on forums, that quite a few Mesmer are so full of themselves, claiming that they do such great damage with Shatter Hex and people are "noobs" for not inviting them. . . If you want to be damage-dealing Mesmer - be my guest, but do not consider typical damage dealing Elementalist "noob" and inferior.

I think you could perhaps excuse us for zealously supporting an underrepresented profession by stating truths and facts to promote better groups (and, just *perhaps* find parties for our characters). Why is it so painful to confront the revelation that in at least three areas of Guildwars (SF, GF, and FoW), the combination of hex-spamming enemies and high-armor targets creates a situation in which Elementalist AoE damage is dwarfed by Mesmer AoE damage (and, heck, Necromancer AoE damage, too)? Would you rather that we lie and say things like, "Domination Mesmer damage is AWESOME L337 against Krytan Tengu!" when really all they have going for them is Empathy (which is nice, but hardly as much damage as an Air Elementalist will do), or, "Gosh, Fire Elementalists PWN the Stone Summit, you really want another Fire Elementalist rather tham me!"...? Both statements are patently false.

But at any rate, your strange hatred of the Mesmer profession is taking us down a path away from the subject of the thread.

There are six professions in Guild Wars. Each of them is (reasonably, but not perfectly) balanced with the others. Each profession can bring something unique and powerful to a party. By making room for all professions, concentrating on finding ways to defend oneself, and becoming better team players, we promote better groups, more successful groups, and (more importantly) better play.

cmb

Mimi Miyagi · Oct 22, 2005, 05:38 AM // 05:38

I'm amazed at how many people mention that player classes other than monks need to bring their own self healing during a mission. Why? Isn't that the Monk's responsibility? The Monk heals (or protects) while the other classes provide buffs or damage, interrupts or degen. Having each class carry their own healing, hex removal, condition fixing spells simply detracts from their effectiveness - and characters not as effective = not sufficient damage = monks over burdened.

Warriors tank and aggro mobs. Rangers, Mesmers, necros, and eles shape the battle with buffs, AOE damage, interrupts, spirits, remove enchantments as well as hexes, etc. Monks provide enchantments, damage absorption, healing and condition removal. As long as the party members all do their job there is no reason for anyone to rely on someone else to do that other person's job. Called teamwork. The only common element - everyone should bring some sort of ressurection skill.

When I'm playing in a PUG as any class outside of a monk, I expect the monk(s) to keep me alive while I deal with the monsters. If the monks rely on the other party members to do their job - then that monk sucks, plain and simple.

When I'm doing PVE (or PVP) I never bring self healing skills, except for necro, since necros steal life (if using blood skills, for example) as part of their job. Otherwise, I look for skills to take the maximize my duties, not the duties of someone else.

And I've finished the game with six different characters, including two different monks. I've just started my seventh (a mesmer) and in three days I'm in the wilds (I don't believe in being run to Droknars) using a mix of PUGs and solo hench missions. And I never bring self healing. If I'm in a party with two monks, I expect the OTHER monk to keep me alive, as I'm keeping him alive.

That's how it's supposed to work, and can work just fine.

ak347 · Oct 22, 2005, 05:41 AM // 05:41

I read the poster's opinion, and a few subsequent posts...

Just to capitalize on a few things (note, im considering tougher areas like FOW and UW more than easier areas), I apologize if this repeats any silly points:
Two monks are asked for because there are almost always unforeseen problems in a mission or a run.
Having characters with secondary monking (aside from blood necro support) ALSO detracts from damage. Case in point - a general party of 7+1 monk with 2-3 w/mo's and 2-3 e/mo's running healing on 2 to 3 slots each and spending points into healing/prot attributes is going to be more damage crippled than a party of 6+2 monks where w/x and e/x/me are fully equipped with damage/other spells and are not fixed to a monk class with limited damage buffs. You say E/Me can heal himself with ether feast? Why use ether feast when your inspiration skill(s) can be put toward energy management?

Remember, these people asking for groups know they can't trust everybody to do things exactly right the first time. I'm fairly sure they know they're calling out to a general public with mixed experience and are giving them the benefit of the doubt, so they want to be extra cautious.
Even simpler, it may be just that most of the time they have won with a PUG group with 2 monks in it.
Calling someone juvenile because you don't agree with them is, for lack of a better term, pulling a "Jack Thompson" (go look him up if you don't know what I mean). I have yet to see an 8 man PUG with one monk pull off a fissure run, and one monk trying to finish UW in an 8 man team is just asking to be wiped all over the floor (can you say mindblade spectres and migraine?).

BigTru · Oct 22, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Would you really trust a PUG with only one monk???

Mimi Miyagi · Oct 22, 2005, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

Would you really trust a PUG with only one monk???

Shouldn't the single monk learn how to heal properly instead of leaning on the crutch of a backup monk?

Nothing provides better training than being out alone on that island, the fate of the entire group resting in your scrawnly soft little hands.

Zonzai · Oct 22, 2005, 06:46 AM // 06:46

You need two monks (or at least 2 healers) for an 8 man group if you plan on going certain places within the game. There are even some places where I prefer three monks. Some of those places are in FoW and UW but not all. For 95% of the PvE content you only really need one monk. Having two is always a plus though (for 8 man teams anyway).

Opal Bridewood · Oct 22, 2005, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Though i think the topic is a bit "over-talked", but still as a primary monk i feel i need to put down my 2 cents

An 8-man team can be put together in many a ways, which can work even to the extent to having no monks, but then people definitely need self-heals obviously. I frequently do UW and FoW questing and we found the two monk setup working best, that is one healing and one protection monk, who can get the party through mostly everything. With two healing monks there is always overlap in healing and need much more coordination in general. Not to mention that protection with preventing damage first place helps the healing monk awfully lot. But doing UW quests with only one monk should be quite an achievement in my opinion, without self-heal or blood/well support from other members.
So to sum up i dont think there are general truths, like: we don't need two monks/rangers/necros etc. (choose at your will) :P You can put together for PvE a successful team with almost any setup, given that the participants are competent players and can plan ahead party build, and not just spam: gogogogogo! right after getting in team...

cheers though

KaPe · Oct 22, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20

"But at any rate, your strange hatred of the Mesmer profession is taking us down a path away from the subject of the thread.
"

My "strange hatred" comes from attitude of *some* (key word being some) of them - "We are so much better than them, yet they don't invite us - therefore, they are noobs". This "strange hatred" doesn't mean I wouldn't invite them. Actually, I'd kick anyone from my parties if he had such "I'm so much better than you" attitude, be it Monk, Mesmer or Ele. There's just some automatic assumption, that if you don't invite Me(or Ranger to a far lesser degree - guess they manage okay), you're moron.

Plus, what annoys me even more, is that they seem to blame Monks for this.

" By making room for all professions, concentrating on finding ways to defend oneself, and becoming better team players, we promote better groups, more successful groups, and (more importantly) better play.
"

The idea is good, but not by calling others fools or idiots because they don't appreciate it. They want to play game the easy way - maybe not most effective, but effective enough. It's doesn't make them "noobs" - who's telling that 2/3/3(tweak number a bit if you want) players can't use good mixture of skills both offensively and defensively?

And BTT - what if single monk gets dazed, hexed, drained or badly hurt and has few degen condinitions on him? What's this? It shouldn't happen? But it does, there's nothing saying that this CL won't strike you as well, or if some ranger doesn't decide to poison you. Second monk is there to also take care of first one and in reverse. Not *needed*, but very helpful. He could just as well be prot, or maybe even smiter. Myself, I prefer to be heal/prot hybrid in such scenario, casting prots first, and then being backup healer.

Charcoal Ann · Oct 22, 2005, 03:48 PM // 15:48

so then...
don't need 2 monks eh?
kinda like we don't need 2 warriors.
...or 2 elementalists
...or 2 mesmers
...or 2 rangers
...or 2 necromancers
why not pick on all those 2 warrior teams out there? or the myriad of 3 elementalist teams? or the blasted 2 mesmer teams that get me oh so annoyed?
you choose to pick on monks. we are not even the most popular duplication in teams. warriors are. now i have a warrior as well. we need 2 warriors. one needs to be able to take some of the aggro and to pick up missed aggro.

monks. 2 heal monks? that is, quite simply, silly. 1 heal and one prot is quite adequate. but you are on the warpath about ALL monks?
you don't need 2 monks on a team!! so don't! or you're a n00b!

so what? i don't need 2 elementalists on my team. sure it speads the process up but that doesn't seem to matter. a monk speeds things up. we let you chaps kill stuff quickly and effectivly. if all the members need to bring enough self heal to stay alive them you lose some serious offensive capability.

i know full well that i can survive, in a good team, with just me on monk duty. however that is a good team. you cannot go into FoW with people you do not know without any kind of safety net. you say but one monk is a safety net! what? for a good team sure, a single monk is indeed a safety net. and an adequate one as well.

for a normal PUG 1 monk is standard equipment. you WILL NOT survive in a normal team wihtout one. the safety net is a second.

personally i have met soem of the most arrogant monks in the world. i have also met plenty of very arrogant elementalists, mesmers, rangers, necros and warriors. they all excel at something. some people let that go to their heads.
just because a mesmer can just about do the same as an elementalist under the right conditions does not mean i should take a mesmer in place of all my elementalists. i would much prefer a mesmer who focusses on doing that which he excels at. disruption. i don't like seeing monks who tank. that is not their forté.

two monks is by no means absolutely necesary. however, neither is life insurance. you might be lucky. maybe nothing will happen to you.
on the other hand, maybe it will.
does it hurt to have that little bit of insurance? incase it all goes pearshaped? incase the Aatxes decide to gang up on the only monk? incase someone experiences a little lag and pulls 2 mobs?

there are so many little things that are out of our control. something can always happen that could mess up the plans of the best group in the world. you can either hope that they won't happen, or try to be ready for them. you could take 2 monks.

sure, something could still happen. like BOTH monks lag out. the chances of this are, however, very small. small enough to be ingnored.

it all depends on the type of person you are. are you going to play it safe? or are you going to live on a knife edge and not bother with that fangled life insurance anyway?

You have 8 slots to use in a team. if you make up the remaining 2 slots with warriors then you lose alot of damage dealing potential. but there are fewer soft targets. the slow damage dealing may mean you monk is worn down slowly.

if you make up those 2 slots with mesmers or elementalists then there is going to be a lot more soft targets. the monk may be overwhelmed.

make it up with rangers then you go somewhere inbetween. soft targets and lower output.

i always say that the most precious thing for a monk in GW is TIME. energy management out the window. a single monk can only heal one thing at once. 2 monks can heal 2 things.
if you have a well organised team that never pulls aggro onto the wrong people then fine, by all means only have one monk. when it all goes pearshaped however you will have little to fall back on.

anyone can heal efficiently if the only one taking damage is the tank. sure this is how it is supposed to be. but it is not how it IS. randomfactors out of you control cause this. you can extend your safety zone that little bit further with just two monks.

some people like to make sure that they will not die. some don't. some people want 2 monks. some don't. the former, however, don't call the latter n00bs for their choice. this should be reciprocated.

i have stated the reasons for my position. i have not called mesmers crap. i have not said that monks are the ub3r 1337. i have merely stated why i think what i think. you can choose whether to follow. do not however call me or the people who share like views n00bs just because they are not YOUR views.

i have said my peice. you can make up your own mind, as i have. however i ask that you do not try to make up other people's minds with petty insults.

Hanuman li Tosh · Oct 22, 2005, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

you choose to pick on monks. we are not even the most popular duplication in teams. warriors are. now i have a warrior as well. we need 2 warriors. one needs to be able to take some of the aggro and to pick up missed aggro.

in my personal experience in pve, i have been in way more groups with 2 monks than 2 warriors. you dont "need" warriors in pve either. what you 'need' as i mentioned before is a group full of people willing to work together.

Ristaron · Oct 22, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by St0rM

Why do you aim this at 12 year olds i am 13 and i aint no dumbass fair enough i aint the smartest kid in the world but y blame this on 12 year olds.I understand that alot of 12 year olds play and such but come on quit whining and start playing who cares if there are 2 monks or 8 tbh it doesnt make a donkeys difference.

We can tell you're 13 with your lack of grammatical prowess alone, let alone thinking there is no distinction between 2 monks and 8...

lishi · Oct 22, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

well actualy i think most of game is easy done with only 4 ppl

1 tank who tank
1 monk who heal tank
1 aeo damage dealer(normaly ele)
1 support char for distruption , debuffing.

one more thing.
people always thing monk should heal, prot( most only think they need heal)

what about smite?

i find my smiter doing more damage of most of nuker using 2 spell , shield of judgement, balthaar aura ...

Charcoal Ann · Oct 22, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

i apologise for the mammoth post. i fully understand if you can't be bothered to read it all. (most of it is repeated anyway).

oh and Ristaron? i am 16 years old and i have talked my fair share of adults under the table with my arguments.

sure a 12 year old does not have massive experience with respect to the world. however at the age of 12 the brain has stopped developing. they(/we) have the same cranial capacity as an adult.

KaPe · Oct 23, 2005, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

one more thing.
people always thing monk should heal, prot( most only think they need heal)

what about smite?

i find my smiter doing more damage of most of nuker using 2 spell , shield of judgement, balthaar aura

That's because it's not expected. I recently started using my monk as smiter - what can I say, I only do it with friends who know about, random person would just cry about me not being healer - of course, they never know that all those enemies are knocked down because of SoJ and mysteriously lose hitpoints every second. It's just the same as with every other class - they're expected to do one or two thing, anything else, and you get called "noob". However, there's also slight problem with BA/SoJ being enchantment, meaning it can get shattered quite easily in certain areas. Not to mention you can easily use Baltazar and still be healer, it's not like you need 16 smite and all 8 smite skills to be smiter.

However, before someone using this to "counter" my argument about Mesmer nukers - smite is entire attribute dedicated to it(and there's like 2 skills that are worth anything

). Shatter Hex is just one spell

Former Ruling · Oct 23, 2005, 02:11 AM // 02:11

I like how you are trying to get Rangers in there

Cuase when I go to a mission area looking for a PUG - 9/10th of the time I get in 1 of 2 situations:
1) I've been invited to a group that is just picking up the first people they see screaming "lfg" - so it usually ends up being half low lvls, and all unorganized. They dont even check to see if their skills work with each other - and half the time NO monk gets to come along (I guess these people dont care for Alesia) - and thats even worse since half the party leaves when we go into mission because "this team sucks with no monk, I'm out!".

2) Someone pities me because I'm an unloved class (Ranger) so just tacks me on in one of the last places, and in the mission doesn't care anything for me (For all they care I can die in the first minute and not bother them anymore) - SO I can never get them to listen to me, stop for a sec when I'm lagging, or even HEAL me in battle..cause I'm just the "tag-along".

REALITY CHECK: 9 times outta 10 I end up doing better tanking than the poor excuses for W/Mos that just made W/Mos cause they heard they "ownzor'd" - and they dont know what their doing. 8 times outta 10 I end up doing more damage than the excuses for Elementalists I get stuck with that waste half the time on sucky long cast time spells, or casting firestorm on a moving target (I'm.Not.Kidding). Especially through the Jungle missions my Kindle Arrows were leveling those Plant enemies left and right...
(NO OFFENSE THE PEOPLE I'VE TEAMED WITH THAT WERE ACTUALLY FINE PLAYERS AND DID THEIR PART - I LOVE YALL)